Friday, October 1, 2010
Enuma elish Silent Socratic Seminar
Good morning. Today you will be participating in a Silent Socratic Seminar (or online fishbowl discussion). We will post questions and answers in the comments for discussion. If you do not know the answers, you may refer back to the text. Good Luck, Have Fun, Happy Friday.
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In the Babylonian creation epic, The Enuma elish, there are many archetypal features mentioned. What are the specific archetypes you typically find in creation stories
ReplyDeleteOne archetype I found in Enuma Elish was Mother Earth. Tiamat is her in this story, but there are also several other examples of her in our world. One question I had about that was why is the archetype of Mother Earth so prevailant in history?
ReplyDeleteMany stories include the archetype of weather, and how it influences the story later on. The weather can specifically match one's mood, or if they are like Ravana, they can control the weather in their favor. Wind is an important element because it gives a strong force and sense of power, this is the same with water, like rain. The heat and the cold can be an advantage or disadvantage to a character because of the power and entitlement one gets from being in control of the world's weather.
ReplyDeleteSome of the archetypes I found was Apsu and Tiamat, because they basically create all of the gods. how is it possible for them to die if they are the original creators of the universe?
ReplyDeleteYou typically find a world (or sometimes not even that much) that is unpopulated by humans and animals, some variation on a supreme being that does the actual creating, and some sort of conflict between powers. In the Enuma Elish, humans were created by Marduk, after the conflict with Tiamat, in order to serve the gods.
ReplyDeleteThe archetypes that I found in Enuma Elish included the "Great Flood". This has been found in many different stories, and explains how the crops were watered, and how the civilizations were able to flourish in this desert-like region.
ReplyDeleteIn most creation stories, the world starts as being formless. A god and/or multiple gods begin to create the earth. Water is created and then land comes about. In the majority of creation stories the world is created and made beautiful and then the humans are created. The Enuma Elish is very similar to the story of creation presented in Genesis. In both stories someone turns against the creator. In Genesis Adam and Eve disobey God and in the Enuma Elish the other gods go against Marduk.
ReplyDelete"In the beginning, only water and the mist that hovered above it existed." Many creation stories, including this one, start with no earth existing.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Erin. I think a lot of archetypes in creation myths involve nature because that it what people saw around them. They knew that there was land before there were people, and their creation myths reflect that.
ReplyDeleteCarlee -
ReplyDeleteI think that's a great point. It's interesting how very different the Gods are in the Enuma Elish compared to most of the other creation stories we hear about where the creator is the supreme being forever and ever.
well a lot of religions are focused on earth and mother nature and like being one with the earth so i think that that is why mother earth is such a archetype in history. But in this story, the God's apointed Marduk to fight off evil and create and in the bible God created the earth and moon and people but Jesus was created to help those of us on Earth so the definitaly compare and i think God in general is a big archetype in our world.
ReplyDeleteI saw Marduk as being the choosen one of the story. He reminded me a lot of Rama because he was kind of choosen as the protector and was superior to the other gods like Rama in the Ramayana.
ReplyDeleteAn example of an archetype i found among the text in the Enuma Elish was Tiamat because she is the mother of all the gods, the origional creator of all the other gods.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteAn archetype I found in Enuma elish is that one god creates the earth and humans, it is not a combined effort of many different gods.
ReplyDeleteI had a question--How can everyone respect Marduk, even after he brutally killed and mutilated Timat's body? Is this "normal" for gods to act this way?
ReplyDelete-carlee, I'm not sure if they ever really die, or if it's more that they die physically but they still look down on everything around them that's happening, and advise the newer gods and the ordinary people.
ReplyDeleteI found it interesting that Tiamat went from the Mother Goddess to an evil enemy, similar to how Eve committed the original sin in the Bible. Why do you think that the culture switched from honoring Tiamat to hating her?
ReplyDeleteMaddieh-
ReplyDeleteI believe Mother Earth is so prevalant in history because people need something to believe in. Different cultures have different names for personifying the Earth, but they use these archetypes to try and explain rationally the overpowering entity they believe exists.
@Maddie--I think the whole idea of "Mother" earth is comforting to people. The idea that we can relate to "her" and give her an identity makes it a little more accessible to understand the idea of what makes things happen on earth.
ReplyDeleteAn archetype in Enuma Elish was the aspect of hero. Marduk defeats the evil forces just like most creation stories.
ReplyDeleteThis story also includes the archetype of man being created. This story has Marduk creating man from almost nothing, just as it is in the Bible.
ReplyDeleteIn many creation stories there is a flood or another huge natural disatster that shapes the Earth into what we know it as. In the story Gilgamesh there is mention of a great flood that researches noted as very similar to Noah's flood mentioned in the Bible.
ReplyDeleteCarlee, I think that the gods are able to die because the people of Mesopotamia personified them so much. They gave them human emotions and therefore, they made it able for other gods to kill them. I think they did this so that the people could relate to them more.
ReplyDeleteHaley-
ReplyDeleteI agree with you about Marduk being like Rama, but would the superiour gods be the ones who created him?
An archetype I found was that water is always one of the very first things mentioned in a creation story. In Enuma elish it was the first and only thing created for a long while. Maddie, in response to your question, I have an answer. We have always relied on Earth for our survival. We have always needed to grow food, build using her materials, and use her energy sources in order to survive. We are so dependent on Earth that it is like our mother.
ReplyDeleteIn most religions or stories of creation the first god or creator is a male. Why do you think in the Enuma elish the creator of the earth is female?
ReplyDeleteThe archetypes that I found were Apsu and Tiamat also because they both are the main gods and they can never really die because they created everything.
ReplyDelete@Chelsea-- from the beginning, Marduk was seen as untouchable. A double god who could do no wrong. Plus people might think twice before they ross him knowing what he did to Tiamat.
ReplyDeleteThe main archetype I noticed was at the end of the story, when Ea created the first human being, out of Kingu. This, according to them, was the beginning of life for us, a stepping stone, and basis of what we are today.
ReplyDeleteCarlee-
ReplyDeleteThis isn't the only time we've gods (or godlike beings) die. Vali, for example, was nearly a god himself, yet Rama could kill him. The same was true with Ravana. Ravana was nearly a god too, yet Rama could kill him. Also, in Greek myth, the father of the gods, Kronos, was torn to bits by his kids and more or less destroyed. This isn't actually that uncommon.
In several stories there have been the battles between gods and they usually are unrealistic. In this text it said the more magic you held the more powerful you were. Also, Ea said he made his son, Marduk, the most powerful and wise. He was born as human but he became a double god because of his parents. How did you grant power to make certain gods become stronger?
ReplyDeleteChelsea S~ I think that part of the reason they still respected Marduk was because Tiamat was a woman, and the Babylonians viewed women more as property, even though she was a goddess. Also the majority of the gods at that point did not like Tiamat, because of her rules.
ReplyDeleteMaddie, I think that Mother Earth is so prevalent in the history of creation stories because it is a way that people can describe and understand something that is unknown to them. Because I think all humans like to understand something rather than just settle for the unknown, so they make up a way of understanding and Mother Earth is one of the ways that humans can 'understand' the creation of our Earth.
ReplyDelete@Molly-- I don't know, but it's about time--don't you think.
ReplyDeleteIt is crazy to see how similar this story is to the bible, the creation part of it. In the bible, God takes Adam's rib bone and makes Eve. And in this story, Marduk creates human by collecting blood and making bone. It makes me wonder what other cultures creation stories are like.
ReplyDeleteMaddie-I was thinking that it is referred to as Mother Earth because mothers are supposed to be nurturing and calm, as opposed to some of the gods that we were introduced to in this story. Also, the earth is the basis for everything, and sets the foundation (many times literally) upon which civilizations can flourish. I think that the people relied on the land so much for their livlihood, so they therefore respected Mother Earth.
ReplyDelete-cate, I wondered that too, because at first women were dominant in this society and women had the power over men. I was wondering the same thing, what made men decide to challenge the ways and become the dominant gender? How different would our lives be if society was female dominated?
ReplyDeleteIn response to Carlee D's question, I think that it was the creators fault for making the gods so powerful, and then wanted to destroy their creations which made the new gods fearful and angry, thus making them destroy their creators.
ReplyDeleteIn most stories there is a supreme being who is able to create something out of nothing. It begins with the water and moves to land suggesting that the land is divine and that the creatures that come from it are more powerful then the ones that come from the sea.
ReplyDeleteI think that this is why the archetype of Mother Earth has existed for so long.
Chelsea, I had a question similar to that. I was wondering if it is kind of a cultural thing where punishment is generally harsher than it is in our culture; I noticed this when Apsu wanted to kill her own sons because they were annoying her.
ReplyDeleteI personally think that Mother Earth is so prevailant in history because people need the reassurance of creation. They need to believe that they didn't just appear from dust but from something more than that. Mother Earth or a creator is just something for people to have faith in.
ReplyDeleteAn archetypal that is discussed most often is the universe. The Enuma elish was recited as part of the ten-day New Year festival and this holiday emphasized the order in the universe. Throughout the short story, the universe is seen as something great and an importance to the people and gods.
ReplyDeleteI think that it is very interesting how The Ramayana and Enuma Elish have a lot in common. Do you think that Tiamat was really evil? Or she was just fighting for what she thought was right?
ReplyDeleteIn Genesis, Adam and eve disobey God, but don't kill him. He is the creator of everything, but Tiamat and Apsu are both killed, and where do they go? Do they just disapear? Or do they go to the heavens that aren't even created yet? God is already the creator of all the world, someone else doesn't take over, but Marduk does, he is named their hero and creates all the world and appoints the other gods to what they will be in control of. Marduk is even a later god and he is the ruler of all.
ReplyDeleteChelsea S - I think that it is accpetable for a god to act like this because he was only doing what he thought was best. In Ramayana the Rama and Ravana destory eachother and noone even think twice about it. It is an epic battle so there is going to be brutality.
ReplyDeleteChelsea- It's a lot like Greek mythology. It started with two beings who made the Titans. Cronus ended up killing the father being and took over. Then, Zeus ended up killing Cronus and taking over as the head god. But despite the generational conflict, all the other gods revered Zeus because Cronus had become corrupt and evil. I think that maybe the other gods respect Marduk because Tiamat had attacked them.
ReplyDeleteCate,
ReplyDeleteI think the culture switch from loving her to hating her because she decided to make monsters that make everyone who saw them parish with fright.
Mrs. Moritz and CateM- That makes sense that he was the "top" god in their society, so to say, and therefore he was very well respected. Also, good point about women being property, Cate. That thought didn't occur to me when I was reading this.
ReplyDeleteChelsea-
ReplyDeleteI think everyone could still honor Marduk because through the story Tiamat became evil. So Marduk was simply destroying an evil being. Throughout history there have always been stories of good vs. evil and most of the time the good wins. It is similar to Rama defeating Ravana. Eventhough he killed someone, most of the people respected him because he was destroying something evil for the good of the people.
Chelsea- I think that the reason everyone continues to respect Marduck is because they think that he did it to protect them. Tiamat wanted to destroy all the gods who were on Marduck's side and those were the only gods left after Tiamat and her army was destroyed. This leaves behind only supporters of Marduck and those who Tiamat wanted to destroy.
ReplyDeleteIvonen~ I don't think that Tiamat was really evil. I think she was just trying to restore order in the universe, and had a different perspective than the other gods who went against her.
ReplyDeleteMolly- During this time period women played a significant role. Apsu, her husband was also titled as a very powerful god but I believe that the title 'Mother Nature' stands out and makes her sound even more powerful then she actually is. Because if you think about it, she completely lost control of her kids and they ended up killing Apsu and then later they killed her as well.
ReplyDeleteI think it was very sad that Tiamat ended up so hated by the other Gods. It seems wrong to me that the Gods she created would turn against her. Marduk blames Tiamat for fighting her own children but Tiamat only does this to avenge her husband and try to stop the winds that the other Gods were creating to disturb her waters. It just seems very unfair for Marduk to take things so far and treat Tiamat the way he did because after all, she is his creator. I think really Marduk and Ea just wanted power.
ReplyDeleteIvone-
ReplyDeleteTiamat wasn't exactly a wonderful person. She was trying to kill people because they made her kids not sleep as well, and "disturbed her body". Most people don't try and create monsters and slaughter their neighbors when their dog barks too often or such.
@Ivonen
ReplyDeleteI personally think that Tiamat was doing a good thing. She wasnted to take back what was rightfully hers and was standing up for what she believed in. I don't think Ea was right to kill Apsu, so its almost like Ea and Marduk had it coming.
Haley-I also thought this was odd, and I was surprised that she jumped to such an excessive punishment. It is completely different from how people respond to annoying things in our culture.
ReplyDeleteCarlee, I think the question of where Tiamat and Apsu go is a great one. I was thinking the same thing when I read the story and could not figure it out. It seems like the gods don't have an afterlife or anything because it isn't mentioned in the story.
ReplyDeleteI think it is really interesting why Marduk creates man--to serve the gods. I wonder if humans are creations of the gods (or God, Buddah, Allah, etc.) and are placed on the earth to praise the gods.
ReplyDeleteErin, if woman were dominant over men, would that mean the men would be "doing the house work" or would they still be going out and working?
ReplyDeleteGoing off of Maddie's question if mother earth is so prevalent in many cultures why is the Sumerian culture more negative than most cultures in how they view mother earth and their afterlife? For example, Tiamat was originally good and then was persuaded by some of her followers to fight against Marduk and now it seems she is viewed as almost demon like. Another example is Sumerians see their afterlife as just a boring dark place when most cultures believe in a rewarding heaven.
ReplyDeleteDoes anyone else feel like the moral of the story is almost sexist?
ReplyDeleteI agree with rachael because Tiamat brought it upon herself when she caused conflict between brothers and fathers and sons. Marduk asks her before the begin to battle "why have you begun such and evil conflict? you are attacking your own childern! Do you not love them? Sons are fighting against their fathers and you have no cause to hate them."
ReplyDeleteWhy is it that Tiamat is considered so evil? She did not originally want to kill her children. She even tells her husband that its evil.
ReplyDeleteRachael,
ReplyDeleteThat is a good question...but in Ramayana we weren't really told were Rama came from, all we knew was that he was Vishnu in another life. So if you ask that question about Marduk then we have to ask who created Vishnu...
-Cate, I was wondering the same thing. Tiamat was first seen as the Mother goddess who nourished all life but at the end of she was seen as a destroyer. Could her transformation have something to do with how her husband was treated by Ea, the father of Marduk? She was also treated poorly by the god Anu when he created the winds which disturbed Tiamat's waters.
ReplyDeleteIf we are all so angry about the fate of Tiamat, then why don't we make a throne to Satan as well? He turned against God, did he not? Yet do we feel that he was wronged, and shouldn't have gotten his fate? I understand that Satan didn't give birth to God, but still. When you turn against the God or gods doing right, and try to kill them, you can't really expect to get a whole lot of mercy.
ReplyDeleteI think humans are one of the many creations of the gods, but if we are allowed to choose which god we want to worship than which one if not all created us?
ReplyDeleteHow can we compare the examples set in the stories we've read like The Ramayana and The Enuma elish to modern day stories, or real life events? Honestly, the past 2 that we've read I've been able to compare them to Harry Potter because it's simply the fight for good and evil, and which is the stronger force that will win. Based on many historical epics or short stories, we seem to realize that good will always win, no matter what because there is always an extra force supporting the good side, like love. Have there been examples where it seems like evil conquers good?
ReplyDeleteAdam... is wasnted a word? Come on man.
ReplyDeleteI agree with many people in that the gods were quick to become angry and turn on Tiamat and am curious as to the significance of this.
Ivone-
ReplyDeleteI think your question brings up a point very relevant to society today. As Americans, we tend to label people of foreign nations as evil and corrupt in and of themselves. This can be seen in the way people stereotype followers of Islam after the events of 9/11. I don't necessarily believe these people are evil, just that they are doing what they believe is right.
Cate-
ReplyDeleteYou mention that Tiamat was trying to restore order to the universe. However repeatedly in the Enamu elish it claims that when Marduk defeated Tiamat he took chaos from the world and made order. So in your opinion who was the one that really was trying to restore order? or what really is order in this society?
Haley, I think that because the characters are gods they may believe that they are held to a higher standard of judgement and the punishment is much more severe. In our culture, everyone makes mistakes and our excuse is that we are only human making punishments less serious than the gods'.
ReplyDeleteKatie- I was wondering the same thing. I don't believe she has so much of a negative title but she is not as significant. She lost control and therefore lost power. It seems as if every new generation of gods are getting stronger and stronger.
ReplyDeleteIvonen, I don’t think that Tiamat was originally a bad person, and that yesi n the beginning she was fighting for what she believed was right, but by making all the monsters she went about fighting for what she believed was right the wrong way. I think that she could have done this in a better way, by not harming or putting up a bad image for herself like how she did by creating all the monsters.
ReplyDeleteMolly- I'm not sure but I think they might have made her the creator to show an evilness in women. She was trusted at first, but then began to act irrationally and they ended up having to kill her. I think that in a patriarchial society like theirs, they probably wanted people to think that women couldn't be trusted with power. By having such a well-known example, people would automatically give power to the men instead. I think maybe they made her the creator and have it end badly as a method of control for a male-dominated society. Just like how in the Bible, Eve commited original sin. Traditionally, Christianity has been a male-led society ever since.
ReplyDeleteMrs. Moritz, I think that you could be right about the gods putting people on earth to praise them and worship them, but are we just being use and manipulated by the gods then, and what give them the right to do that to us?
ReplyDelete@moritz
ReplyDeleteI feel as if that was the orgional reason for our creation,or similar to that but i think it has changed over time. I feel like people think that we don't need to serve God, more like God should "serve us". Not that he is our servant but i think humans think that God should always be there for us and that if anything goes wrong in our lives, people blame it on God instead of themselves.
Haley- I think the reason why punishments seem so much harsher in these epics is because they are fights between gods. I have noticed that the stories that are told are extremely dramatic and mistakes seem to be blown out of proportion so much that the punishments must also be exaggerated. I don't really think it is a cultural thing as much as it is a way to emphasize the lesson that we as readers are supposed to learn.
ReplyDeleteStephanie, Molly, and Meghan- I was wondering the same thing, as to whether Marduk did it for the "Greater Good," and it definitely seems like this was why he decided to kill her, eventhough she was a woman. This is unlike Rama's feelings toward women in Ramayana...
ReplyDeleteMaddie-Thanks for that explanation. I did not know all of that, and it makes much more sense in the context of this story. It makes me wonder whether or not the other gods would have done the same for him if he wasn't the top and most-respected god...
Haley
ReplyDeletethat is very true and makes me wonder now, who did create vishnu?
Parker - Except in this case, Tiamat was the original creator or God. Her and Apsu created all of the other Gods and they turned against Apsu first and then were disrepectful of their mother goddess so she revolted against them. I don't think you can compare the other gods rebelling against Tiamat to Satan at all. To me it just makes no sense.
ReplyDeleteNicole and Adam - I believe that your question go together. The reason Tiamat is considered evil is because the story is sexist, so when a women turns against the gods its a bigger deal and they move to extremes. When Apsu mentions this it is not problem until the women agree.
ReplyDeleteHaley
ReplyDeleteTo me it seemed the the Ramayana did tell us where Vishnu came from. At the beginning of the story it talks about Bramha the creator of the universe. To the Indians I think that this would have made him the creator of all things in the world and out of it.
I agree with Lauren, I think it’s unfair how he killed Tiamat so brutally and in exchange he got everlasting kingship in Babylon.
ReplyDeleteSean- I believe that the gods turn on Tiamat because she was planning to kill all of them because they were annoying her. That could have made them mad and want revenge.
ReplyDeleteAdam,
ReplyDeleteI think from the eyes of our culture it can be seen as sexist because the woman is always the bad guy but like one of the groups said in their presentation yesterday that is how their culture works and it is seen as normal for them.
@Sean
ReplyDeleteI meant to say wanted. I am sorry for the misunderstanding.
Back to the Earth discussion- In general, Mother Earth has been around forever and has given human life so much. Food water, shelter, have been the primary needs for life to exist and so people don't believe that something, such as Earth, was just created out of nothing. It had to be created out of something or "someone" had to make it. Again people started to believe that there was a greater force that created the world.
ReplyDeleteIn stories, it was better to comprehend the idea that a god (or gods) made Earth what it is today (or at least back then).
Adam-
ReplyDeleteI don't really think that the moral of the story is sexist, because you have to think, this isn't really our culture. Just like in the Ramayana, Rama wasn't being sexist, he was trying to see her faithfulness. Tiamat and Apsu were both killed. Yes, Tiamat was destroyed and her body was made into the earth, but women have never played a big role in this culture. Women are typically looked down upon, and treated as objects rather than people. In our point of view, this story is sexist, but in theirs, probably not.
I have to agree with Cole. The men who flew those airplanes into the Twin Towers did not think they were doing something evil or wrong. They thought they were cementing their place in heavens filled with virgins because of their devotion to their beliefs.
ReplyDeleteIt seems almost discouraging to think that we are here just to please the gods. It would be like we are just puppets to them and that doesn't really seem fair. I think a religious figure is a good thing for people to have in their lives but at the same time they shouldn't spend every waking moment trying to please that god.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteMaddie-
ReplyDeleteThat is a very interesting point. I never thought of it that way. That they could give women power to ultimately make it their downfall as a way to show that men should be the ones with power.
-rachael, I'm not sure. I don't know if the roles would be entirely reversed because I think there are some things that women are naturally better at, just like there are things that men are naturally better at. Babies are usually so attatched to their moms because they've been attatched to them for 9 months previous to being born. I think that there would be less gender discrimination against women, and it'd be the men who might have to work to prove themselves equal of rights, like women did for voting.
ReplyDeleteCole
ReplyDeleteIn your statement about 9/11 you are also just taking a whole entire religion and putting the blame on them, where as it was not the whole religion in on this event, but rather only the radical followers that support their terrorism. So I don’t think that we can stereotype all of the followers of Islam
Parker- I agree. Even apart from religion, everyone hates a traitor. Particularly if you are on the side that was wronged. Think of Benedict Arnold in the Revolutionary War. Even to this day, Americans kind of hate him.
ReplyDeleteErin- I think it is hard to think of modern day examples of this occurring, and the only ones I can think of are the battles that are occurring in Africa and the Middle East. Some are religious battles, which is sort of like this story, regarding the fight between good and evil. I can't think of any where the gods turn against one another, but this is similar to countries switching sides to be allies with different countires than those that they originally decided to ally.
ReplyDeleteAdam-
ReplyDeletei can see your point in this story being sexist but what if Tiamat was a male, would he have been killed also for doing the same thing?
In regards to everyone saying that Tiamat shouldn't have created monsters to fight off the other God, I believe that it is a lot like our human society. When a ruler is being challenged they must rise up with an army to assert their power. If they do not do this then they will be taken advantage of and not respected as a ruler. Whether this is morally right I can't say but it is neccesary at least in the human world to keep a position of power. It seems to me from this reading that the Gods and Goddesses in the Enuma elish are an awful lot like humans anyway. So doesn't this army that Tiamat formed make sense?
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteTiamat had to be destroyed and made into earth because that creates "mother earth." If it was a man it would be "father earth" and that would be just weird.
ReplyDeleteStephanie,
ReplyDeleteThat makes sense sort of. The thing for me is that she was right and instead of being rewarded in thought and deed for it they made her seem so much more evil then that.All this because she was upset that her husband had been killed by her children, and had been talked into rebelling
Ashlyn- I get what your saying but then do you think that when Sumerians look back on her they view her as a God or just a part of the creation of the Earth? Also, do you think there is any significance in her being a woman, rather than a man, who ends up causing problems in the balance of things?
ReplyDeleteChelsea-
ReplyDeleteI think it's the fact that there was even the slightest possibility that someone could challenge his power that caused him to kill Tiamat. To remain in power people can take things a lot further than they were meant to go.
I think it is normal for gods to act this way because they're gods and frankly, they can get away with whatever they want. Also it is a good way to put the fear of him in the humans. I think everyone respects him because they are scared of him.
Chelsea S - I think this is just because of the cultural difference. Women are more valued in the Indian culture it seems like compared to the Middle Eastern cultures, and that is why it was okay for a women to be killed in Enuma Elish and not Ramayana.
ReplyDeleteMolly~ I think that Marduk did restore order, but I think it is also important to remember that Ea originally disobeyed his parents and killed Aspu which started the entire conflict. I think you can justify both sides of the dispute.
ReplyDeleteAs for order in the society, I think there was a large lack of order. With the unpredictable floods and harsh gods I don't think the Babylonians or Sumerians experienced order.
Parker H-
ReplyDeleteI understand your sarcasm in saying we hold double-standards where we are upset about Tiamet, but don't think the same way about the Bible. It's simply because we don't understand the culture of the Middle East, and therefore don't make accurate judgements about stories such as the Enuma elish.
I agree with Sean because it seems like the gods like to toy with us out of pleasure and that we are more like a game board than an actual civilization.
ReplyDeleteNicole,
ReplyDeleteEither way I think it is valid to compare Marduk to Rama.
Why did the Babylonians view after life to be a dark dreary place? How does this impact their lives on Earth? If they knew they would be stuck in nothing forever after death would they live their lives to the fullest or not see any point to be good for there is no impact later on?
ReplyDeleteSean -
ReplyDeleteIt does seem unfortunate that humans are here to only serve the Gods. If that were true, how do you think the Gods react to those who do not serve them? What about in today's modern world, are there any consequences for not believe in life or is it only after death?
Mrs. Moritz
ReplyDeleteI think that it is a good possibility that we were created for that reason. However it makes me wonder-- if we were created to serve the gods and/or to serve them why were we as humans given the ability to think and form opinions. Wouldn’t it make more sense for them to create us unable to think for ourselves and question them?
Lauren-
ReplyDeleteThey didn't turn on Tiamat and Apsu. Read the beginning again. They were too noisy. "I cannot abide the way the gods are behaving! Their clamor continues incessantly both day and night, so that I can never get any sleep. I desperately need peace and quiet! Since they will not listen to my pleas, I shall have to stop their raucous activities the only way I can, by destroying them!"-Apsu
They're too noisy, so you want to kill them??? If you're a god, you can come up with something like ear plugs. Or go hide in the earth or the sea or something. Tiamat followed suit later on. The younger gods were essentially being teenagers. Would you be ok with your parents killing you over that? You'd fight to stay alive, would you not? Regardless of who the parent is, they don't have the right to outright destroy you over something like that. On the other hand, you are perfectly allowed to defend your life.
Eric- i dont think the fathers would have to carry the baby because the motherly instinct. I do think that you are right about the gender discrimination, if women were dominant than the men would have to prove themselves for equal rights, but i don't think it would take them as long as it took woman to get them
ReplyDeleteCole- I agree with your comment about not knowing about what other cultures believe in. In the Middle East, they have a completely different mentality than we do in the U.S., and even other parts of the world for that matter.
ReplyDeletei mean erin
ReplyDeleteNicole- I agree i do think that it was a little over the top of a punishment for her trying to do what she thought was right.
ReplyDeleteWomen, in society, seem to always have a bad reputation, especially in past history. Perhaps the reason why is because men are tempted by their own needs and find that it is evil working against them. Just a thought.
ReplyDeleteAlly S~ I think Tiamat would have still been killed if she was a male because they killed Apsu and stole his crown and halo.
ReplyDeleteKatie M.-
ReplyDeleteI think because the Babylonians believed that the afterlife was such a unhappy place they would try to make the most of this life. I think a lot of people would do all that they could to gratify themselves because after they die there was no reward awaiting them and they had nothing to work for so it didn't really matter how they lived this life.
@Cole D
ReplyDeleteI agree, if you are going to fully understand their way of thinking, you have to be from the Middle East, and be on the inside looking out, not the outside looking in. I also don't think we can make accurate judgements about these kinds of stories because of our bias
Katie M.
ReplyDeleteI think that even though there is not a afterlife that they are looking forward too, that doesn’t mean that people don’t have a conscience or fell guilty for their bad actions. Because even atheists in our world today still do the right think even though they don’t believe in a God or an afterlife, because they still feel shameful for their wrong doings. And so I think that they can still live their lives to the fullest but still do so with acting appropriately.
Stephanie- Good point. I didn't realize how different the cultures actually were, and how their views differed so much. This story almost seemed to show that women were only property, and if they acted out of line in even the slightest way, they should definitely be punished by a man in some way.
ReplyDeleteSean
ReplyDeleteI dont think that earth could ever be called "father earth" I think the reason why we call earth by that name is because of the beauty and elegance of it. Men aren't necesarily refered to as beautiful and elegant....just saying
Katie,
ReplyDeleteI think that there after-life was so dark and dreary because they didn't really know that anything better could exist. Constantly their lives would be ruined by the flooding from the rivers.
On top of that I think it gave consistency to their lives. Already so much of what happened was uncertain because of how unpredictable their lives are. I think that the found relief in knowing that no matter what they did they would all go tho the same place.
Erin- I don't think we will ever see a story where evil triumphs good, because nobody wants to have that pessimistic of a view of the world. We all want to believe that what is right will succeed and all evil will go away. In the real world, this doesn't happen all the time. But I doubt anyone would ever put it into a story.
ReplyDeleteI think it would be interesting to have this conversation as an international kind of thing so that we could have different cultures' opinions. Do you think the people in that part of the world would have different ideas about the story now than they did when it was created? How would their ideas differ from ours?
ReplyDeleteEmily-
ReplyDeleteYou're wrong.
Katie- I believe they veiw her as the creation of Earth more than a god. I don't really know why they decided it would be mother nature instead of father nature. Trying to point finers as why this happened and who was to blame is difficult. The gods were annoying and egging on the parents and the parents decided to eliminate the issue but the gods were to wise and figured out there plan. It is hard to say who is at fault but they could have gone around solving their problems in another manner. I just dont understand how they sent so many gods to kill Tiamet and no one was strong enough to kill her and the 11 monsters until Marduk. But why wouldnt they all just fight together because they are all fighting for the same purpose.
ReplyDeleteStephanie, In Ramayana there are women who are killed too. The first demon that Rama kills is a woman. I would not say that woman are more valued in India than the Middle East, their situations are actually very comparable in the two stories we have read so far.
ReplyDeleteWho or what distinguishes what is good and what is evil, because both Marduk and Tiamat do what they think is right/for the best?
ReplyDeleteI don't think that Tiamat was evil because it was what she felt was right. Because to her their manners were rude, their activites were annoying and did not respect authority so she did not know how to deal with them.
ReplyDeleteYes, Mandi-- typically we find in ancient literature that women are the cause for most turmoil and destruction--think Sita, Tiamat, we'll see it again in Gilgamesh. How do you feel about that?
ReplyDelete-chelsea, I agree with your statement, which works with The Ramayana as well, because their beliefs are completely different than ours and therefore we can't entirely understand them. What seems too extreme to us can be normal for them because it's what they believe in whereas we don't so we don't get a chance to empathize with their culture.
ReplyDeleteParkerh - I get your point but I think things like that are very different in the world of Gods. I agree that this story has a lot of very human like qualities and personally I do not think Apsu was right to be so hasty. Tiamat did not agree with him either but I can't blame her for wanting revenge for her husband after he was killed by the Gods they created. It's a tough issue though, if your child killed your husband you probably wouldn't be on the best of terms with them. In our society today of course we would say that we could never kill our own child, even if they did something like that but think about this more naturally violent and what I see as more primitive society. Even though these are Gods they are easy swayed by emotion and are quick to fight.
ReplyDeleteKatieM.~ I think because of how dark and dreary the afterlife was that the Babylonians and Sumerians would live their lives to the absolute fullest. One would want to do everything they could on earth before they were stuck in a dark cave of nothingness for eternity.
ReplyDeleteKatie- I feel like they tried to take advantage of everyday and live it to the fullest. I think if you reflect on most cultures they overall have a positive outlook. Therefore although Sumerians didn’t believe in a very happy after life I think they would really focus on the positives of everyday life because they knew this was the best time of their entire spiritual life. Adding to this, as human beings in general I think the majority of people are optimist (or maybe that’s me being an optimist ha) therefore our attitudes towards life tend to be happier ones.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Sean to a point, I think it is pretty sad that humans would have to serve gods to just do thier dirty work. The one thing I don't agree with though is that you could be living for a God who only wants the best for you and living every moment for him because he loves you. The gods in this story make it seem like all we are on this earth for is living every moment to please them for what they don't want to do.
ReplyDeleteMeghan
ReplyDeleteBy giving humans the ability to think on their own it allowed them to make a conscious decision as to whether they wanted to follow the gods or not. If they were just forced to do it and had no opinion as to why they were doing it, it would make their decision less significant. By giving them free will, it allows them to follow the gods because they want to, not because they have to.
Katie- I think the afterlife in this society gave the people a safe place to reside after their death. Maybe it also acted as a place where they could contemplate their lives, and reflect on it since it was a "cave". Also, this might have been a meditation state that they entered in to after they lived their life to the fullest...
ReplyDeleteKatie- I see what you are saying and I think that they considered the afterlife to be nothing because they believed they were created only to serve the gods. I do think that they would have lived their lives to the fullest though specifically because they thought the afterlife was nothing but I don't think that they would have strived to be good in life because there was no reward for it.
ReplyDeleteMeghan- i agree with you, it reminds me of the rebellious gods in The Enuma elish. they gave the gods all those powers and they rebelled against the Tiamat and Apsu. Plus if we were unable to think for ourselves wouldn't we be a sort of pet to the gods? not saying that pets cant think for themselves, but that they are taken care of by humans because we are there masters.
ReplyDeleteCole and Adam-
ReplyDeleteIf we can't understand another culture's stories, then can we understand something like the Bible? Technically, the Jews had the the creation story in Genesis long before we did. That has been translated and whatnot as well. If we can claim to understand that, then why can't we claim to understand another culture? Even if this story is nothing like their actual belief, I was talking about the Enuma Elish I have in front of me. I took what Tiamat said and went with it.
Sean- that was a great question. I believe if we were discussing this with people across the world i believe we would share similar points but they would bring new thoughts. It would be interesting to have several different religious people sharing their beliefs about what they thought.
ReplyDeleteMaddieh-
ReplyDeleteThere are plenty of stories where evil triumphs over good. However, these stories do not last throughout the centuries because, like you said, people want to believe that what is right will prevail.
Cate M
ReplyDeleteI agree with you because if you know that after you die its not going to be great and your going to be stuck in a cave for the rest of like eternity then you would want to live life to the fullest and have a positve life to balance out the negative that will be coming your way.
@Sean
ReplyDeleteI 100% agree, our opinions as a culture in the United States, are different from those of different parts of the world. They would probably, on the most part agree with this story and the main idea, but with different names.
Chelsea, just to clarify do you think woman in both of these cultures are property in the stories? Or just one?
ReplyDeleteSean,
ReplyDeleteI agree with Ally. Mother earth refers to the beauty of our land and also the care it gives to us like water, shelter, and food.
-moritz, I don't like how women are always to blame. I can see why in a lot of cases though, because we can be overdramatic or gossip too much which can lead to more issues. But men are also at fault for some of their actions, so it'd be nice to see more of a balance between when women are evil and men are evil.
ReplyDeleteCarlee -
ReplyDeleteYou bring up a very good point. It shows just how different each religion really is. When we read this creation story it makes us all very sad or even angry that the Gods made humans just to serve their needs because that is different from the religions that most of us follow. I wonder if the people who believe in this creation story feel differently. I'm sure they do, they probably except the fact that they were created for the Gods. But it really just makes you think about religion in general and how different each one really is.
Stephanie~ I think that only the individual distinguishes what is good and what is evil. It all depends on perspective. In a war for instance killing the other side is viewed as heroic yet in ordinary society killing someone is viewed as evil. So I think that the individuals ideals and society's influences determine whether an act or person is evil or good.
ReplyDeleteIn the Enuma elish, the gods have children to create other gods. After Marduk was born, why did the gods stop having children? Why didn't Marduk have a child?
ReplyDeleteSean- I think that brings up a very good point. In America, we have a broad point of view because we have so many cultures and beliefs in one place. However, not everyone believes the same things today as people did when these stories were written. Think of Biblical times. Today, we find people who follow the Bible very strictly as kind of out of place in modern society. The same thing could happen in the Middle East. They definately have different views than Americans, but that doesn't mean their beliefs are very traditional, in regards to the Enuma Elish.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Sean and Carlee and with what they have said this bring up one of my questions, what gives the gods the right to use us as they see fit and when they are done with all of us what will happen then?
ReplyDeleteStephanie-
ReplyDeleteI had a similar question to that, but I found that Marduk is the "hero" in the story because he saves all the gods from Tiamat. She was originally wanting to kill her children because they were to crazy. When he kills her, he is offically named the best god, so wouldn't he be considered the one who calls the shots? That is what all the other gods make it out to be
Cate - I agree with you. I think that when a culture believes in reincarnation they live there lives to a point so that when they are reincarnated they are in a better place than before. However when the afterlife is looked upon as a dark and dismal place they will live their lives to the absolute fullest because their are no second chances.
ReplyDeleteSean- I definitely think that their views would differ from ours, because we don't know a whole lot about their culture. It appears that they don't have a problem with seeing women as property because they were raised with that belief, but people in the U.S. view that issue differently. Also, they understand all of the background behind this issue and story, whereas we only know what was provided, along with some information we may personally know. I'm willing to bet that they view it as more of an epic story than we might.
ReplyDeleteParker, as a society we have studied the Bible much more than other stories such as these. Many people grow up learning about the Bible and its lessons which is why we claim to have more of an understanding for it. As a culture we haven't studied into this story as much, meaning our class is less familiar with it.
ReplyDeleteAlly- Many cultures believe the point of living is for afterlife though. There are many different opinions on afterlife and the sumerians i believe didnt stress the important of it because it was just bound to happen.
ReplyDeleteSo in the story, Marduk had to prove his power to the Gods by making a garmet disappear and then appear, what other movies/books/stories also have that element?
ReplyDeleteSteph,
ReplyDeleteGood and evil are completely opinionated. In the story, they both thought they were doing what was right. A real life example, Hitler thought he was doing waht was right, and in his eyes maybe he was, but in our society we believe it was wrong and evil.
Molly - Great question! The only thing I can think of is that the Marduk and the other Gods were now realizing the dangers of having so many Gods with conflicting ideas. Perhaps they feared that another mind like Tiamat or Apsu would arise and there would be wars. Perhaps it was easier for them just to stay among the Gods already there for they all agreed with eachother and just have the humans do their work for them.
ReplyDeleteCarlee- Tiamat did not want to kill her children, that was Apsu. Tiamat had to defend herself when Apsu ignored her and ended up getting killed by Ea.
ReplyDeleteParker9- I think that the gods can probably use us when they see a majority of the population in harm. When it is for the greater good of society, I think they exercise their rights to punish the people and also use them to do what they want. This is probably why their culture is so unpredictable since the gods interfere so often.
ReplyDeleteTy
ReplyDeleteI was wondering about that too. I think that in the Ramayana they considered more property then they were in the Enuma elish. In Ramayana the woman were unable to make decisions but in the Enuma elish the gods that wanted to rebel went to Tiamat BEFORE they even decided to rebel. Like they thought that her opinion mattered.
Adam C, good comment about Hitler. I agree.
ReplyDeleteAlly
ReplyDeleteRamyana is a prime of example of this. Rama has to prove that he is worthy of being Sita's husband by stringing the bow and shooting the arrow.
Last comments...
ReplyDeletemmoritz-
ReplyDeleteYou brought up women being trampled on in history. I'm sorry that happened. At the same time though, if we are talking about equality, how far are we willing to take it? Women can't have it both ways. You can't be respected, revered and protected if you want to claim COMPLETE equality. You'd have to be drafted too, you couldn't expect doors to be held open for you, etc etc. I understand that you want the same basic rights. I'll gladly give you that any time, any place. I would. But how far are you willing to take equality?
Cole-
ReplyDeletePlease explain to me why I'm wrong? You so positively stated that I'm wrong so back up your statement.
Mrs. Moritz-
Woman have always been the downfall of men, think back to Adam and Eve as well.. I think it's unfair that woman are always blamed for everything. Men are the ones that actually do what is wrong. It's not like woman force them to do it. Sita didn't force Rama to run into the woods. In the end that was his own decision. Why can't men just accept their role in what was wrong and admit it was their own fault?
Ally- When Marduk had to prove his power it is kind of like Rama having to string the mighty boe in order to prove he is worthy to marry Sita. It is a test of how powerful one is and if he should have the significant title.
ReplyDeleteAshlyn- I think the reason all the gods didn’t just team up to kill her was that they viewed her death as, the one that killed her would become the next great ruler and god. It also seems to me that the gods each were very prideful in their individual power and each believed they were strong enough to kill her alone, and they wanted to prove that to the other gods watching. This reminds me of in the Ramayana when Ravana and the other demons try to kill Rama. Each demon goes one by one to attempt to kill Rama and come back the hero, and one by one they get killed.
ReplyDeleteMolly- It is possible he had other kids and they just didn't mention it. But if he didn't have other kids, I think it might be to stop a generational conflict. Obviously, her children were the downfall of Tiamat. Maybe Marduk doesn't want the same thing to happen to him. Possibly, this is another way to show a weakness in women. That we give in too much to our children, that we are too nurturing, and that is why we can't be given power.
ReplyDeleteMolly-I agree with you in that people were given the ability to think freely so they can decide to serve their gods instead of being told to do so. Being able to make your own choice to serve them because you want to makes it more of an important decision instead of doing something because you have to. The gods might feel more powerful by being served without forcing people to do so.
ReplyDeleteDoes it take a victory to create something so beautiful and unique like Earth, but at the expense of something or someone else? Marduk helped create Earth through Tiamat, but he murdered her in order to do it.
ReplyDeleteAlly S.
ReplyDeleteIn Harry Potter when Draco has to put things into the armiore and make them dissapear and then reappear in Hogwarts, this is ver similar. Because he has to prove his power and strength.
Moritz~
ReplyDeleteI think it's unfair to women because we're given the blame for something that's not our fault. It's odd how men are never seen as evil, but women are.
Why do the women have to be blamed? Why can't it be the guys?
In the Ramayana women are expected to follow the husband and somehow prove themselves if they are thought to be unloyal. An example is when Sita jumps into the fire just to show Rama she loves him.
Perhaps men give into their own evil and would rather blame another for their own thoughts and feelings.
Erin,
ReplyDeleteIt is apparent that in some books women are seen as scapegoats, however it does seem like men are usually the great villians like at the beggining of the story when Apsu wanted to kill his creations he was the original villian.
Ashlyn
ReplyDeleteI feel like almost every culture is like that though, they live their life so they can have a better afterlife or go to heaven or whatever they believe in but if you are being told that when you die that you will live in a cave and cannot see the earth again, would that make you think differently about how you live your life on earth?
Kind of going off of what Ally S said, (I can't currently think of any similar stories), I was wondering why he Marduk had to make a garment disappear and reappear. Was there any significance to it being a garment rather than another object?
ReplyDeleteTyler- No, I thought that the men viewed women as property in this story, but not the Ramayana. In the Ramayana, Rama respects the women, but in this story, it did not seem to matter. Although in the Ramayana, some of the kings still seemed to think that it was a right to have their women as property, but I think that the cultures are different due to the locations of the stories.
ReplyDeleteChelsea S., the greater good for the gods could be the complete opposite then the greater good for the people
ReplyDeleteCarlee - I agree but i also believe that both thought they were good, but since the story is told from Marduk's point of view he is considered the hero.
ReplyDeleteParker h-
ReplyDeleteI think the main difference in why we can understand the Bible as compared to the Enuma elish is because a large percent of the American population practices Christianity. Churches and modern technology have made accessing other people's views about the Bible much easier, which can then inform us and allow us to comprehend the Bible much more. However, I claim that we cannot understand the culture behind the Enuma elish because we've looked at the story for a short period of time, and haven't had many others' perspectives, especially from those who believe in the creation story mentioned here. Therefore, I would assume that our class of seniors are much more informed about something like the Bible than we are about the Enuma elish, which we've barely studied, other than reading through it. So, generally I don't believe we understand this culture as well.
Ally S. - I think we see the 'clothing is power' thing in a TON of media. Take superhero's for instance. They are regular people until they done their costumes and suddenly they are out saving the world. Even if you take a less fantasy like approach, certain clothes earn you respect or show you are a powerful person in the regular world.
ReplyDeleteMaddie
ReplyDeleteSo do you think one of the reasons why women are not given power is because they are too tied into emotions? Do women care too much about how they are going to affect other people and what people will think of them?
Based off the story do you think that Babylonians valued age and wisdom more or youth and strength? Why?
ReplyDeleteNicole,
ReplyDeleteI think that they woman did have the ability to make decisions. Sita choose to go with Rama, she was not forced to. I think it is a good argument to say they were similar to property, however, i think it is unfair to say they couldn't make decisions
Parker,
ReplyDeleteI think that the gods in this story just emphasized human behavior. Most people would rather have someone else do their own work.
So I think that the gods will decided that humans will never be done. If the gods keep reflecting human behavior we will see that they will always want more.
Does it strike anyone else that all the girls are saying men are never to blame? Ever? Since when? I'm pretty dang sure men have gotten a lot of blame too. All I have to do is to think back to history classes to think of many instances of men being blamed for their actions.
ReplyDeleteParker9- That's true, but it seems like they are trying to do it for the people in this story, although they still get some benefit out of their decisions. I think they have to weigh all of their odds to make the best decision possible...
ReplyDeleteChelsea
ReplyDeleteI do not think that, in this story, women were viewed as property. Taimat was in almost full control of her followers, and she was a female. I think that if she was viewed as property, no one would have followed or listened to her.
@Parker- Of course I am grateful for the equal rights that have been bestowed upon women and I wholeheartly agree with you that some women want more (rights). I am certainly not blaming stories in literature and I am not looking for more liberation. I just think it is really interesting that in ancient text, women are the downfall and it is typically because men are whipped over those women. :) And no, I do not want to be drafted, but you do bring up an excellent point.
ReplyDeleteParkerH - Men have certainly been held accountable for their actions on many occasions. I think what people are trying to say is that it seems like women are forgiven a lot less easily then men. Women are more often expected to make the right decisions where as men MOST OFTEN have more room for error.
ReplyDeleteAlly-Of coarse that would change my perspective on hot to live life. If everyone around you though was going to the cave, wouldnt you just get use to the fact and except it. Afterlife and Heaven usually have a positive veiw but I dont think that sumerains thought of the cave with a negative outlook. That was there cultures belief and yes it would make you want to live every day to the best of your ability but you should be doing that no matter what afterlife plans you have.
ReplyDeleteCate - I do think that they valued wisdom more than youth and strength because they talk about how the most powerful gods were those who were the wiset. I think they believe that if you are wise then youth and strength will come along with it.
ReplyDeleteParker, I dont think that girls believe in every case they are to blame, especially not in history, but rather than in these epic books we have been reading which do place a significant amount of blame on them.
ReplyDeleteAdam abd Chelsea, I agree with adam in that women are not really viewed as property. Tiamat is a goddess... that's a pretty big role for property.
ReplyDelete