Friday, October 1, 2010
Enuma elish Silent Socratic Seminar
Good morning. Today you will be participating in a Silent Socratic Seminar (or online fishbowl discussion). We will post questions and answers in the comments for discussion. If you do not know the answers, you may refer back to the text. Good Luck, Have Fun, Happy Friday.
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In the Babylonian creation epic, The Enuma elish, there are many archetypal features mentioned. What are the specific archetypes you typically find in creation stories
ReplyDeleteI think in these epics there is always a battle between good and evil.
ReplyDeletequestion: In most epics, why does the woman always seem to cause the problems?
ReplyDeleteSpecific archetypes that I noticed that were all linked together were the elements; earth, wind, fire, and I’m not sure if it is included as an element but also water. Even in various cultures these elements play a role somehow.
ReplyDeleteComparing this creation story to Genesis their is a male divinity and a female divinity as in the bible there is Adam and Eve. And they are treated the same. Men being higher than woman.
ReplyDeleteI think sometimes that good becomes the evil though hayley
ReplyDeleteYes Hayley i would agree. Also violence is a reoccuring theam in all these epics. What does that say about the past.
ReplyDeleteWhat does that say about the past?
ReplyDeleteWell, I think that this creation story relates to the Greek/Roman creation story in a way. Primarily the fact that the father is killed by the children.
ReplyDeletei agree with hayley, it is usually the fight between good and evil or a fight for territory, or a possesion, nothing is ever really peacful between the two countries or even one, they find one thing or another.
ReplyDeleteToward the end of the story ti says,"Ea killed Kingu, severed his blood vessels, and fashioned the first human beings out of Kingu's blood." Since humans are made out of Kingu's blood, do they believe humans are inherently evil?
ReplyDeleteIn the creation epics we have learned about so far in class I think a couple of the most commmon reoccuring themes are a creator and a destroyer, or in other words two opposite sides to the biulding of the universe. From what I have learned so far, usually there is some sort of battle or war between the Gods, and from the victory comes the creation of the universe by the winning Gods.
ReplyDeletecjb: Just like in Genesis women are made to be impulsive and quick to say what they want and need even if they shouldn't say it all. So I believe they don't ALWAYS cause the problems but they are impulsive.
ReplyDeleteIn creation stories, most end in a battle for the spot of supreme order.
ReplyDeleteOne archetypal feature is the idea of an all powerful being coming into a undeveloped world that is either not being run at all, or is being run by a evil being. In this story, Marduk comes into the world that is pretty much only water, defeats Tiamat, and makes earth.
ReplyDeleteThere is also a lot of character development. It seems that they are either a tragedy where a great hero has a fall from greatness or where a person works for greatness and achieves very high rewards which like hayley said can be a battle between good and evil.
ReplyDeleteReoccuring motifs found in many epics and teachings, is the idea of karma. It says that the egyptians believed in resurrection for deserving human beings. another could be a god or king gaining to much power and an outside action will affect there feelings and help them change they're ways.
ReplyDeleteIn creation stories you typically find the archetype where the female is less dominate than the male. It seems that in creation stories the female is portrayed as lesser than the man. Like in the Bible for example, Eve is the one who lead Adam astray. In The Enuma elish, Tiamat ultimately loses the battle and dies.
ReplyDeleteOne of the main things I tend to see in most creation stories, is a literal description of how each part of the earth was created,(land, sea, sky, etc). Also the creation of the weather is usually included in these stories.
ReplyDeleteAlmost invariably there's a mention of water in these epics. That tells you just how important water was for these early civilizations
ReplyDeleteCJ, I think the reason is because the guys always fall for the women and lose all focus.
ReplyDeleteOne archetype that I noticed was that women are often corrupted by others. In the Ramayana Baratha's mom was deceived into stopping Rama's coronation. Eve in the Bible is tricked into eating the forbidden apple and in the Enuma elish the Tiamat was tricked into going to battle to try to kill her children.
ReplyDeleteI noticed that people rebel against the higher authority like Marduk fights Tiamat and Adam and Eve eat the apple and disobey God.
ReplyDeleteI noticed the same thing as Jordan, in most creation epics there seem to be many elements that come from the earth. However in American culture this is not as prevalent as we do not culturally accept nature as our creator.
ReplyDeleteThis story reminds me of Ramayana, and how even though there are gods involved they still make mistakes and have human qualities. There is always the clash between doing whats right and evil.
ReplyDeleteWhy do you think the "teenagers" decided to tear apart the mother and to make her Earth?
ReplyDeleteA lot of what everyone is saying seems to be opposites or dichotomies. Good vs. evil, nature vs. nurture, males vs. females, etc. what are the epics and creation stories trying to show through these dichotomies?
ReplyDeleteRelating back to the earlier comments such as bretts. I want to ask the question is there really any evil. Because from their point of view they could see their actions as something good. It all depends on your perspective of what evil is and i think you have to look at both sides of the story.
ReplyDeleteBut Javon why is there always some sort of epic battle why are these past cultures sourounding themselves with violence and leaving this for future people to read and comprehend?
ReplyDeletei agree with ashley too, all creation stories have a male and female main "character". I also agree with Jordan talking about the elements. I think in all these stories the Earth is portrayed as a charcter rather than just our land.
ReplyDeleteNancy is right. In most creation stories, there is already water, or it is created before land. Why do you think that water is regarded as more essential than even land?
ReplyDeleteIn the Enuma Elish, where did all the water collect in the beginning. As far as I'm concerned, oceans just cant float around over nothing. And what was so important about them having control over the water?
ReplyDeletecjb: In ancient times, women were always placed under men. So that's way in many epics, the women are the ones who cause the problems. But I have a question for you: What does this tell us about the culture today?
ReplyDeleteNancy- I never noticed the amount of references to water and land before. This really shows the primitive nature of the stories and of those who created them.
ReplyDeleteI think thats a great question Alyssa. I don't think however that the Gods believe that humans are inherently evil. It also says on page 157 that he used Tamiat's body to create the Earth, and she was considered to be evil. I honestly think that both of them were just used as parts to help create our people, but I don't think that the Gods that poorly of us because it also says towards the end that God created man so they can serve the Gods and then they could be at ease. So I think his creation of man in the big scheme of things was not in spite or with the intentions of creating us as evil beings.
ReplyDeleteJordan, I don't see karma in the story we read. Once Tiamat died she didn't reincarnate into anything. Or at least it didn't say in the story.
ReplyDeleteashley_c, Who said these people were "teenagers"? Marduk was said to be born fully grown. And the other gods were not teenagers in the sense of age or maturity.
ReplyDeleteI agree with paige; women do seem to be viewed as less powerful than men in these stories. In the story, Marduk is sexist at one point and says, "After all, it is not as if a male has come against you. Tiamat, for all her weapons, is only a woman!"
ReplyDeleteso that's why***
ReplyDeleteAlyssa- Maybe they think that the blood is evil part of humans but they might not be completely evil.
ReplyDeleteMatthew, I think that water is regarded as the most essential element because in many senses it is the basis of life. Water keeps us living and healthy and is available is all cultures and therefor is highly regarded.
ReplyDeleteWell Matt like Mrs.Moritz's said about the Native Americans, they believe everything is from the land. Maybe the Mesopotamians believe everything comes from water.
ReplyDeleteJosh, because water covers majority of the earth so them having control over all of it shows how powerful they were.
ReplyDeletei feel the women are depicted evil because they are always getting something taken away from them, or being man handled by a higher ranking male, like between Marduk and Tiamat, the battle between their magic was one by Marduk.
ReplyDeleteJosh, if the people had control over the water they had access to trade, irrigation so they could have fertile crops and survive. Water is a bit essential to life so having control over that gives people great power.
ReplyDeleteDo you guys think that the "male dominance theory" was first started from this specific epic?
ReplyDeleteActually Matt--I think in most creation stories their is a void, then water. But that is just a technicality and I have probably read more creation stories than most of you.
ReplyDeleteJosh, the fact that 3/4 of the world is made of water would make it great to be the God of it. And back then traveling over seas was very important
ReplyDeleteI agree with ashley they are placed under men because they seem less superior in the past. I also agree with patrick that their is a lot of rebellion in these kinds of stories. I believe that could be why woman are such a "problem" in these stories. It is because they are rebelling against authority.
ReplyDeleteWell Jeffery I'm sorry for my comment. I guess I meant children But you still didn't answer my question.
ReplyDeleteDoes any one think then the writers and the culture behind the Enuma elish is inherently sexist then?
ReplyDeleteIn the ancient times, people didn't use science to explain things like we see so many people do here today. They used a higher power as explination for earthly phenomenoms. Is that a better way to go about things or is the way we approach it better?
ReplyDeleteIn Enuma elish I find that the creation story can relate to many other ancient creation stories. Especially the two divinities Marduk, and Tiamat. They emphasize that the world was created through them, and because of their children. Another creation story that I know of is one of the many from Greek Mythology. Were there are twelve Olympians who were the in a sense grand parents. They have children, and two of their children have children together. Which incest with the Gods in the Greek culture wasn't frowned upon. Its interesting because the father wants to kill his son who is Zeus so he doesn't steal away his throne as supreme God. Well Zeus learned of this and ends up killing his father, and thus ruling Mount Olympus.It's almost ironic when you think about it. I think the same concept of the gods being jealous or craving power for themselves is a archetype seen throughout all stories of creationism. Another one would that the rebellion of children, and how that really is seen through out our culture as well.
ReplyDeleteMatt, I think the answer to your question is purely practical. Early civilizaitons of the world needed a source of water to survive. Even nomadic tribes only camped near water. Water becomes the most important thing in their entire lives. It allows them to survive, and when agriculture begins to develop, it allows them to innovate and thrive.
ReplyDeleteI think that the reason why water was the first thing is because Mesopotamia is between two rivers that were uncontrollable at times but also provided life for the people that were living there.
ReplyDeletewell actually paige, she didnt reincarnate because she wasnt deserving.
ReplyDeleteDo you think there is a deeper meaning behind the fact that Taimat is a woman and she became the Earth?
ReplyDeletedmartinez- what exactly is the male dominance theory?
ReplyDeleteAlyssa, i also thought that they were under the impression of people being naturally evil. They talk about how the people have to live in such a bad world. I found this ironic because in creation stories, the Gods that they worship are the one that created the Earth?
ReplyDeleteJosh, it's important for them to have control of the water because that's where everything started. Their world was created from the water in this story.
ReplyDeleteThere was no land with all that water though. It was just floating over nothing.
ReplyDeleteI think that the male dominance theory was started long before this specific epic. I think that it would be derived from cultural aspects where the man held all the power in society and as history has taught us this was true of almost all ancient civilizations.
ReplyDeleteDanny-No i dont think that. I think the male dominace theory has just been a theme in the past. I dont think anyone epic could have begun it.
ReplyDeleteMen are definitely viewed as more powerful in creation stories. It may have given the men in early society justification for their dominance, leading directly to the trouble that modern day societies still have regarding the dominance of men in many areas of life and work.
ReplyDelete@Sean: I don't think that the word evil is actually appropriate in this myth. I prefer to think of it as differing opinions because evil is defined souly by deeds done, but by the overall character of the doer.
ReplyDeletei think that the male dominance thing started way before this one epic and just has gone over time.
ReplyDelete@Jeff- they are refered to as "young gods," not necessarily teenager. I guess we just assume because of their behavior. Staying up late, making lots of noise, being destructive. Is that wrong?--
ReplyDeletedmartinez: I think that the "male dominance theory" may have first started from this epic but we've already seen male dominance from the ramayana. So I don' think it came from this specific one. But Do all ancient epics show signs of male dominance?
ReplyDeleteOne archetypal I found in The Enuma Elish was mother earth. Tiamat played that role. Many archetypal also include weather, and how it was set according to someone’s mood.
ReplyDeleteSorry, Ashley. I didn't mean to sound attacking there. But you do have a point. A lot of these gods are children and parents and grandparents to one and other, and it seems that the children are rebelling to an extent over the older generations.
ReplyDeleteEmily M- I think the creation stories for most civilizations and religions, are or were the cause of demeaning behavior towards women. I think that because of what we are taught to believe in, that many places in the world, along with us at one point in time, view woman as an inferior to men. I think it tells us about our American culture that we have progressed and begun to diminish the naive idea that woman are inferior.
ReplyDeleteA question to further spark this topic: Do you think that this epic is what is the cause or main influence of the way woman in the babylonia area are treated as significantly lesser peoples then men in modern society??
Ryan, no not necessarily. That's just the way their culture taught them to act. I mean yes the story is a little bit sexist but the writer was from a time when it was a mainly male-dominated society.
ReplyDeleteRyan, I think that the writers were definetly sexist to some degree in writing this story. The sexism probably stems from their culture though, and it isn't just a stab at the opposite gender. This seems to be a theme for the middle-east region anyway.
ReplyDeletethis is fun! :D
ReplyDeleteWell Brett i think there almost needs to be a balance of science and religion. There are just surtain incadences in life that can not always be explaind from a scientific point of view. So there for another form of belife has to come into play to almost sooth the questioning mind.
ReplyDeleteThe "male dominance theory" is where men are superior to women and are seen accordingly. I think today, it is less but for a time men were seen higher up, and possibly this all originated from Enuma elish, where Marduk is above Tiamat.
ReplyDeleteJavon: since this story influences most of the babylonia area, i would say that yes womans roll in their culture is reflected off of the epic.
ReplyDeleteIt's all good Jeffery, no worries. But yes i agree.
ReplyDelete@ Everyone talking about male dominant theory--On the flip side, aren't women the one's causing this? They are the destructive force in most ancient texts--think Sita, Tiamat, Eve...
ReplyDeleteI find it interesting that in the creation stories we have read, the gods seem to have so many flaws. I would expect that because they are gods, they would be "perfect." But in The Ramayana, Rama makes some questionable decisions and in The Enuma elish, the gods' jealousy seems to bring upon the battle. So do all gods have flaws?
ReplyDeleteMale dominance seems to be an underlying factor in all ancient civilizations, so therefore its easy to see why it works its way into the creation story of that place.
ReplyDeletebrett, I agree with what you said and I think that we use science too much to describe things that we dont understand. I think there are things in this world that are supposed to be unknown and we try too hard to put an explanation to everything.
ReplyDeleteI found the Bible's creation story online. It's interesting because when Eve is created, she is not viewed as directly subservient to man, but as a companion.
ReplyDeleteCan you find any other creation stories that don't have outright sexism in them?
i agree with cameron. There is a type of sexism in it all. Especially in the middle east. Even today you can see that they have held onto very old traditions and are very conservative about the past. It is definetly a glimpse into the past.
ReplyDeleteRyan, I think that the message of the Enuma elish is somewhat sexist. Parts of the story suggest that women are inferior to men and that men should rule. On page 155 Marduk says, "After all, it is not as if a male has come against you. Tiamat, for all her weapons, is only a woman!" Marduk seems to think that he has the right to rule and that he can defeat anyone especially a woman.
ReplyDeleteJavon, yes probably but also I think it has to do with their religion and they way they've grown up. They were taught that women are less than men. So that's how women are treated
ReplyDeleteJavon, I agree with you that in many cultures the creation story sets the stage for the idea of women being inferior beings. In many cases, such as the Ramayana, the culture described in the story views the myth as sacred and holds everything depicted in high esteem as in majority of the stories the ideas are said to be derived from the gods. I could easily see these creation stories even today impacting the views of those who live by them.
ReplyDeletesean, is it sexist if thats how they have been taught to live their entire life?
ReplyDeleteJosh in Enuma Elish the earth wasn't formed until Marduk crushed Tiamat's skull, slicing her in two, and setting up one half as the sky, and the other half as the earth.
ReplyDeleteGoing off what Alyssa said I think the reason the Gods are imperfect, shows us why the world is imperfect in this creation story at least, It gives a the reason for the imperfections if that makes sense.
ReplyDeleteI think that maybe men are scared of the power women seem to have and that's why women are put down in texts.
ReplyDeleteI think sexist is a modern word, and can't be accurately applied to this story. They didn't see this as sexist, they saw it as normal. In nearly every ancient society (except for a small few such as the Amazon tribes), women were thought of as inferior and subordinate to men. It wasn't sexist, that's just how things were. Men tended to be stronger, so they were leaders. Women tended to be weaker, so they tended to have the typical "women's roles."
ReplyDeleteJavon, I think that the answer to your question is yes because people look at this epic in this country and see it as an example and a way to live their lives according to the Gods.
ReplyDeletein these stories there is always the issue of whether you will come back in a new life as something great or terrile based on your life, but a interesting thing the babylonians believed that "human beings had to make the most of thier lives. that life after death promised no rewards for earthly achievments, just dakrness, dust, deprivation and eternal boredom." coudld this have sparked modern day atheism??
ReplyDelete@Matthew - Well in the bible Eve convinced and manipulated Adam to eat the apple with her. And in the end Adam gave in. Isn't that what Mrs. Moritz is talking about?
ReplyDeleteI don’t really think these stories are sexist; you have to consider that it may have been women that helped to create these stories or pass them down to their children. A lot of these stories actually give the women all the power, the power of influence and the power to inherently control the decisions that men make. The fact that the men are controlled by women shows their weakness.
ReplyDeleteI like how you put that Ryan. It seems to be now a days alot of people are losing that balance and trying to find a clear explination for everything that happens. Maybe some things arent meant for figuring out, on the other hand, you say "soothing the questioning mind" with scientific answers. I like that.
ReplyDeleteAnswers to Javon's question-I do believe that this epic is what influenced men in the babylonian area, and possibly what caused the modern day sexist men. What does this show us about their culture today? Did this epic possibly influence the thought of women in our American culture today?
ReplyDeleteWell then if some of us do look at this story as being sexist. Where does this inferiority for women come from? Its almost like the chickan and the egg witch came first? So if a man was birthed by a woman wouldnt you want to show that woman the ultimit respect. After all it is women who acctualy give life.
ReplyDeleteJavon's question is interesting:
ReplyDeleteA question to further spark this topic: Do you think that this epic is what is the cause or main influence of the way woman in the babylonia area are treated as significantly lesser peoples then men in modern society??
I wonder,if because children hear this story, does it affect how they see women from a very young age and so they cycle continues.
Moritz, I didn't think Sita was really a destructive force, it was really Ravana, Sita just got kidnapped. So I don't think women are always the destructive force, they just get tricked into stuff easier so then the men have to go rescue them.
ReplyDelete@moritz your right now that you mention it women are pretty destructive....but then also think that earlier we were talking about how women could be the reasons for rebellion i think that women being placed under men and disorder brought from this go hand and hand.
ReplyDeleteRyan S. - I can honestly say I don't understand why quarrel between the Gods is what causes the creation of man in many of these epics. One thought I have is maybe that these stories are in place to teach us that how powerful the Gods are and what the magnitude of damage or creation they could do if their tempers rise. I think this then is interpreted by the people to be peaceful and not to disturb the Gods. I almost see a "rule by fear" mentality for man created by these stories.
ReplyDeleteDoes anyone think that the sexism and lack of parental compassion in this myth reflects poorly of the culture of the Middle East?
ReplyDeleteMost stories that were written around this time and even now, they are sexist not just towards women but men too. They are always finding one way or another to bring someone down at one point or another and belittle them. But it didnt jstu start with this epic, it has been in many others before this and all throiughout history. I agree with Ryan, this is an occuring theme in the middle-east, it is now and always has been. Their view of women is that we are only good to have kids, cook, clean and take care of the men and i dont think that it will ever get better or change.
ReplyDeleteI think that Ramayana and The Enuma Elish sound very similar and I think ms. mortiz has a point when she asked the question above "aren't women the one's causing this?"
ReplyDelete@Nancy:
ReplyDeleteI noticed that they do withdraw a lot of their divinities from nature creating a polytheistic way of worship for all their gods. My question though is has their ancient worship influenced how we live as a society today? Is it our foundation for life?
Alyssa, I think the gods in creation stories have flawsand these flaws lead to the creations of the world. I think that even gods have a fate or destiny that they can't change in these types of stories.
ReplyDeleteWell thank you Sir!!!
ReplyDeleteI agree with Nancy about that men might possibly be intimidated with women. When people feel threatened by something they want to restrain it in order to feel more secure or safe.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Jeffrey. People from this area and time thought treated women less than men was normal. That's just how things were. So it's not necessarily sexist. From our point of view it is. But back in the day this story was seen as normal.
ReplyDeleteJavon- I partially believe that The Enuma elish is basis for the manner in which woman are treated in Babylon. But at the same time, epics seem to be created once a civilization has already been established. Therefore, the treatment of women could have already been established, then depicted in the story.
ReplyDeletemales dominating women is part of the eastern culture. That is why it appears so frequently in their creation myths
ReplyDeleteNancy, what power are you talking about?
ReplyDeletei agree with nancy, women carry many dominating features and are put down in case they gather the power to conquer the men.
ReplyDelete@ Ryan--but in most creation stories man is just created, not born--Enuma elish excluded.
ReplyDeleteCJ- I don't think it is sexist if that is the way you have been raised and your culture is. You have nothing in your life saying this is wrong unless you make a change yourself. We see it as a bad thing because we are brought up in a society that is based off equality.
ReplyDeleteAlyssa, I found that too. It is hard for me to understand why people in these cultures regard these gods so highly when they are so similar to humans. There are so many creation stories where a god makes a huge mistake or acts rashly causing harsh repercussions. Some cultures are taught that a god is one of power that can right any wrong, and is infinitely wise. If the gods in these creation stories are such flawed beings why do they hold so much importance? Because they are so similar to humans why are they thought to be any better than a simple person?
ReplyDeleteJeffery - What you said is basically saying they're sexist? If women are inferior and men are superior?
ReplyDelete@Moritz, I think it does affect the view of women that is engrianed in young children, but the fact that a woman was in charge in a relaviely peacful world before Marduk came into the picture has to be noted as well. Not only that, but Tiamat is manipulated and convinced by Kingu to revolt; she doesn't do it of her own choice.
ReplyDeleteWhy do you think that women are so belittled during this time and today? What exactly began this trend??
ReplyDeleteAshley,
ReplyDeleteYou're right, the snake did deceive Eve, but her husband was punished equally for the crime. I would argue that there isn't any sexism involved. Eve blames the snake, Adam blames Eve, and God, being the being that represents ultimate good, punishes all three of them, and not just Eve. I think that's an important distinction to make. In many epics, it seems as if women are punished unfairly.
This is sort of off topic from what everyone is talking about, but do you guys think it is ironic how Sin is associated with the moon or night?
ReplyDeletePatrick- i totally agree but why is it then that some people believe we need to stop them from treating their woman so poorly?
ReplyDelete@ the sexist discussion- I dont think the stories are meant to be sexist, I think they just are what they are. I also dont think that the women take offense because they too pass on these stories and look at them as an example of life.
ReplyDeleteDo you think that the creation stories that invlove destruction, war and quarrels, and then creation are intended to keep man at peace? To show them the power of the divine and instill fear in them to keep them in line? Or if not, how do you think these sorts of creation stories influence the people?
ReplyDeleteDoes the fact that in alot of these stories men look down on women have to do with the destruction and deception women often cause such as Eve convincing Adam to eat the apple, and Tiamat trying to kill Marduk?
ReplyDeleteMoritz, I do believe that when children read these stories it does have a affect on how they see the worl or men and women. And Cameron, I think that it has a little poorly effect in the middle east.
ReplyDeleteErin, I think creation stories like these helped spark male dominance. Like Mrs. Moritz said, when little kids hear these stories they learn that that is how you are supposed to live. Then they grow up thinking it's okay to belittle women. They then teach their own children those values and the cycle continues.
ReplyDeleteLouise, I think the reason they hold so much power and the reason people idolize them is because they are raised that way. The people also always want to have a ruler, somebody to lead them and someone who can help them. These God's may seem no better then humans but they also have power and that is something the people can look up to.
ReplyDelete@cjb I dont know if it as much sexist but it is wrong. Then again you have to wonder did women put themselves in this place in the past. Or was this kind of thinking forced upon them that they should always be subordinate to men. I could see women being treated as an object for the mans satisfaction in ancient times. But of course i am only looking at it from a very modern aspect. So to answer your question no i dont think it is sexist that they are taught to be like that but it is wrong. Do you think the women are okay with this? and also do you think it is sexist?
ReplyDeletedmartinez, I think that it is Neoplatonism that says "Light is God", that the soul is made of light, darkness is the absence of god.
ReplyDeleteMatthew,
ReplyDeleteBut the way that Adam blames Eve for making him eat the apple doesn't that make him sexist?
Yes God treats them fairly but that doesnt mean that Adam or Eve does.
Javon... Do you think that it is werid that at the time these cultures look at the world being full of different gods and goddeses? Why dont they look at the world as a whole and as one single thing? Now it could be because of my twenty first centry perspective but it just seems werid to think that if you anger the sun god or the wind god that they will smite you. The earth and the universe seems to work as a whole. Maybe a clock of some sorts.
ReplyDelete@David, Yes and no. Sexist is a word from our era. An era where women have the same rights as men for the most part (at least in our country). Now, if we see gender inequality, we view it as sexism. Then, if they saw gender inequality, it was accepted as the norm. Yes, in our view, it was sexist. In their view, everybody understood that men held a superior role, both physically and in leadership and such.
ReplyDeleteCj, there are always the people that rebel against popular belief and custom of their culture. I am sure that there are American men who think of themselves as better than women just as I am sure there are men in other cultures who question their culture and wonder why their wives of daughters are not given as much power or freedom as they are.
ReplyDelete@ dmartinez
ReplyDeleteI don't think it's particularity odd that sin is associated with night. In ancient times, night was to be feared because of the dangers. It's also universally considered to be one of the best times to commit crimes. Would you rather commit a murder in broad daylight, or when everyone is asleep at night?
Calvin- People feel the need to help them because sometimes the conditions for women truly are horrible.
ReplyDelete@Josh
ReplyDeletethe power to give life and it's kind of gross but the moon was pretty important to ancient people too and women follow a same sort of cycle as the moon... Men very well could've noticed this and wanted to keep this power under lock and key so they made women out to be something that needs a man to keep it in control.
I think it’s interesting that in many past and present cultures myths control not only people’s faith but also their science, government, and basic daily life. In our society we are so politically correct and we have laws that separate church from state and in other cultures there is no separation anywhere. How do you think in ancient times this could have been both a burden and a blessing to not separate myths from religion or government?
ReplyDelete@Paige--so if I let my daughter watch Disney movies and let her feed into the idea that she will meet Prince Charming, aren't I doing the same as what this epic has done to the young men in the mesopotamian region?
ReplyDeleteJavon, yes I do think they are intended to keep peace. Because after the battle, the good almost always seems to prevail. Like In ramayana, he is eventually crowed king. I think it is a demonstration on struggle leading to something good.
ReplyDeleteThe stories we heard when we all were little sometimes had a lesson to go with it. Do you think that there was a hidden lesson in this myth? If so what was it?
ReplyDeleteI agree with Jeff. It was Apsu and Mummu who wanted to destroy Anu and Ea, with no influence frojm Tiamat. She said, "you know that i have complanied about the same problem. HOwever, your solution is evil! shall we destroy the children that we ourselves created?" Her hate for Marduk was actually influenced by her husband and son. What does this tell us?
ReplyDeleteJosh- Because the gods are flawed, does this make them more relatable to the people?
ReplyDeletePaige, i dont think parents are teaching their kids to belittle women, i think the thought of a women in danger and being resued, and staying home to watch children and clean is the idea, and that gets carried on as to that we cant do anything else, its different in everyones mind but not taught directly through childrens stories.
ReplyDeleteJavon, That's a really good point. Although I don't think these stories really kept people from fighting, the stories did show how powerful the gods are. Which might have made some people choose a more peaceful path out of fear of what the gods might do.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Megan. I think the children look at the positions of men and women in society differently after hearing or reading this story. They might think that if the gods believe that women shouldn't rule or are inferior then they will most likely think the same way.
ReplyDeleteYes in understand that Mmoritz. Stories such as the bible, but i dont really belive that... everyone has to have a mother. Everyone started out as a collection of cells and had to be borm form something or someone.
ReplyDeleteAshley,
ReplyDeleteAdam says "The woman you put here with me—she gave me some fruit from the tree, and I ate it."
He blames God for giving him the woman. In early Jewish culture this would have been a whole new level of wrong, and the culture this story was a part of would have completely rejected Adam's argument. I think that the story is meant to show how Adam shifts blame, but if he is sexist, his sexism would be portrayed as evil.
Brett-I agree with that. Based on what my parents say about "how nothing good happens at night time" it relates to the fact that the moon, is called sin.
ReplyDeleteIt really is unrealistic to believe that a woman must find 'prince charming' in order to live and survive in this world. But what I believe is that in ancient societies such as Mesopotamia they wouldn't or more could not believe anything else than that the man was higher up in the order of life than a woman could ever dream do be.
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ReplyDeleteAlyssa S. - I like the point that you have made. Maybe that is the case with all epics that depict woman as inferior. Man(human) created these stories, and maybe it has been sinced the beginning that man established himself as a higher power than woman, and it has spread throughout the history of all civilizations in this world, and that is really the root of all this sexism. We could even argue that it was this epic that his influenced the world today since the myths of the middle east are the oldest recorded literature in the world.
ReplyDelete@david I dont think they are being sexist in the way that men are superior and women are inferior. I dont think any of us can really understand if it is sexism. Our cultures are so very different from theirs. For example, in Ramayana when Rama killed Vali, Vali explained to him how he could be so judgemental. The cultures were different and because of this Rama had commited a wrong doing. We cannot really judge if it is a type of sexism because it could just be how the culture is. We don't know if the women are happy with this or not. In fact would it not be a flaw on our side to judge another culture with how they live and try to force our opinions on them?
ReplyDelete@dmartinez, Sin is just the name of the moon god. It is just coincidence that the tranalation came out the same as our word "sin" meaning an evil or unholy act.
ReplyDeleteThe conflict amongst the gods seems more like a popularity contest- because one group has a falling out with the other, the more powerful group between them claims power, and Tiamat, although considered evil, brought all of the other gods into existence, and merely asked for peace and quiet from the raucous "newer" gods. It's rather frightening, with the lack of communication and the amount of intra-heavenly murder, that these individuals rule the Earth
ReplyDeleteYes Matthew but that is exactly what proves my point. He is blaming the woman eventhough he ate the apple. So yes it is evil but it is also sexist in the way Adam blames God for putting Eve on Earth.
ReplyDeleteJavon - I do think that creation stories that involve destruction, war and quarrels are intended to keep them in peace, to keep them in line, but they also influence people to look up a higher power, "the divine." I think this holds true for both Enuma Elish and Genesis.
ReplyDeleteAt Logan.
ReplyDeleteA Woman... Maybe even a Monkey woman...
I think stories of any kind; those told orally, written down, or seen in movies are some of the most powerful teaching tools ever. Stories are a way to show people ideas as opposed to just telling them. I think parents use them early on to teach or convince kids certain ideas and beliefs while their brains and conscious’s are still easily persuaded and moldable.
ReplyDeleteExactly Sean--We can't completely understand their culture. But, do we appreciate it?
ReplyDeleteAlyssa, I think it does. They can relate more, so the people feel a closer connection and so the people will want more help from those Gods.
ReplyDelete@Moritz
ReplyDeleteYes children stories even from our own society teach us as kids different values and lessons about life. Male dominance shows up in a lot of the Middle East stories so they are more prone to live their lives in the same way as these stories
to both the sexist conversation and the men& women conversation reguarding marriage and "prince charming". i think that this was the way it used to be and the times have changed. Divorce never used to even be an option and now they are happening everyday, i think people's opinions on love have changed dramatically since these epic times.
ReplyDeleteMatthew G- I agree with what you're saying. I now can see a parallel between this epic and the Bible where God calls bad things, sin.
ReplyDeleteI agree sean, it's difficult to compare ourselfs to a culture that existed thousands of years ago.
ReplyDeleteJake, even though Tiamat brought all of the other gods into existence and only wanted peace, she herself created an army thus contradicting her want for peace.
ReplyDeleteAshley,
ReplyDeleteAnd Eve blames the snake even though she had been instructed not to eat the apple by God himself.
There's no word for it in our language, but following your argument, she would be considered racist towards snakes.
Adam doesn't blame her BECAUSE she is a woman. He tries to shift the blame onto both God and Eve to make himself seem more innocent. That is the distinction that determines if he is sexist or not.
There's been lots of talk about these epics that we read to be sexist. But Mrs. Moritz brought up a good point in class the other day about Disney movies teaching young girls that there is 'prince charming' who will come and rescue us someday. Isn't that a little sexist?
ReplyDeleteJordans, does that bring another issue to the table, did the public school system that we went through mold the right ideas and beliefs?
ReplyDeleteIs there a reason in this story the Earth is made from the body of a woman?
ReplyDeleteWhy do you think that they have so many gods, for almost everything it seems?
ReplyDelete@moritz, its hard to appreciate a culture that is so vastly differnt. with so many freedoms we have here its hard to look at another country and make outcasting people or even kiling others for being different look like a ritous thing, to them its a way of life but to us, cruel and inhumane.
ReplyDeleteJordanS- I would completely agree with that statement. the stories that our parents nurture us with are what create our main systems of bleieve as we get older. So I think reading these kinds of stories to children and teaching them it is the correct way of life is what has lead to sexism, racism, and anything else we have seen written about.
ReplyDeleteYes, Hayley.
ReplyDeleteLike I shared in our conversation last Fri. about marriage, it is no longer about one partner being obedient or serving the other, it is about teamwork and committment.
@sean, there are many themes in human history that are universal, however, judging a culture based on the differences between ours and their's is an essential tool. Also, judgement as a discernment tool in general can be very helpful, as a relativistic outlook can easily obscure the lines between right and wrong, true and false.
ReplyDeleteHayley- I completely agree. But do you think people still strive to achieve the kind of love and relationships portrayed in these epics? Or have we given up on good relationships because times have changed so much?
ReplyDeleteFor those discussing the topic of men & women, do you think that the role of women and their freedoms will continue to evolve? How far do you think it could go?
ReplyDeleteLogan, It fits the idea of "Mother" Earth being made from the mother of the gods.
ReplyDelete@mmoritz--No, I dont think we really do appreciate it. Take modern day Iraq. After the invasion took place we tried to set up a western world government and very western view points. We tried to change their whole society that took them generations to build. It was almost like killing a rich culture. I hope that one day we can learn to appreciate it but for the mean time i don't think any one can appreciate anothers view. They can understand it but not appreciate it.
ReplyDeleteAshley and Matt--stop fighting!
ReplyDelete@Erin, the have so many gods maybe to keeo that order it seems these stories are based upon, everything needs a place.
ReplyDeleteOr maybe the divine are shown to quarrel and kill each other to show that they aren't perfect either. That even the gods aren't perfect.
ReplyDeleteAlthough, coming from a different time, we can say that the gods in this story are as sinful as us, do you think that an ancient Mesopotamian would have argued that all the gods are perfect?
ReplyDeleteLogan- I'm not sure, but is this also where we get the term "Mother Earth?"
ReplyDeleteLast comments...
ReplyDeleteLogan... Maybe that just reflects my thought that a woman is the life giving aspect to humans
ReplyDeleteAnd @ Erin, there is a god for "everything" simply due to the refined nature of most elements of nature, that seem so exclusive, yet so intertwined at the same time. To explain these many elements in harmony, a family of gods, with each one bearing a responsibility that effects the Earth, is the most instantly logical and evident explanation to a culture lacking science.
ReplyDelete@Erin
ReplyDeleteThat's how they explain the unexplainable. They weren't very scientifically advanced back then so instead of using science to explain nature, science, and etc., they used the gods to explain it. It was their only way of understanding things that couldn't be explained.
jeffreys- where do you think the idea of mother earth came from though?
ReplyDeletepeanut butter and jelly
ReplyDeleteMatthew,
ReplyDeleteI understand what you mean when you say that according to my argument she would be racist but I'm talking about sexism towards females not racism againt animals. Or technically Satan.
And yes I agree Adam is trying to make himself more innocent but I believe he is doing it while being sexist towards Eve. Easily shifting the blame to Eve.
Emily, I think that that can be seen as sexist because it makes women seem like damsals in distress and makes all men seem like perfect knights in shining armor. However, we all know that not everyone fits into those stereotypes. But what are we supposed to tell our children about marriage? Like Moritz said earlier this week you don't "live happily ever after", you have to work really hard at your marriage. We can't be too harsh and yet I don't want to lie to my future children.
ReplyDeleteBrett M- I think the public school system has focused primarily on including everyone, being completely fair every minute of every day. They teach more about being politically correct than they do creative. They teach us by telling us, testing us, quizzing us; but never by letting us show them we truly know anything.
ReplyDeleteBrett, i think that in alota ways they didnt because, if you think about it we were exposed to so much at such a young age, not only from the students but by the teachers too. People from older generations would be amazed if they took one step into our schools and saw how it actually was.
ReplyDeleteAlyssa S- I think we very well might have given up on the prince charming relationships these days. I think the current statsitics on divorce and what we see in our own families have taught us to beleieve less in true love in our generation.
ReplyDeleteSexism is a modern term; however, I think that the idea of sexism comes from before even the first real civilizations began to form. Back when intelligence was very low, somewhat of a caveman type of people. I think that in this stage men were more valuable than women simply because they are stronger and built for hunting and gathering and carrying objects where as women are not. It makes me wonder if with advancement to eventual intelligence and acculturation if this mentality stuck and created the views of women that many people still today hold.
ReplyDeleteSean i hope that one day man and woman could evolve to understand and appriciate the differences in one another and not look at the other with inferiority or hate.
ReplyDeleteHayle
ReplyDeleteI agree with you. Love has changed a lot over the years.
Does anyone think that the stories we heard when we were little has changed over the years? Are they more real? did they go fake?